Can you prove to me that you are real?
-
-
NotBob
Pro - 2008-11-21 @ 23:37:27
-
-
Znethru
Pro - http://www.febland.net/
- 2008-11-21 @ 23:41:02
Is that some kind of philosophical stance or is it the vintage cider talking?
-
-
-
-
joebangles
- 2008-11-21 @ 23:38:29
Touch me.
-
-
Znethru
Pro
- http://www.febland.net/
- 2008-11-21 @ 23:40:30
Now, would a computer have said that?
-
-
-
-
Znethru
Pro
- http://www.febland.net/
- 2008-11-21 @ 23:39:22
Is that some kind of philosophical stance or is it the vintage cider talking?
-
-
Znethru
Pro
- http://www.febland.net/
- 2008-11-21 @ 23:48:36
Of course, the above could be a computer glitch, which proves nothing!
-
-
-
-
SeasideMan
Pro - 2008-11-21 @ 23:40:33
No, of course not. No-one could.
Durr!
Tom.-
-
Znethru
Pro
- http://www.febland.net/
- 2008-11-21 @ 23:41:41
That remains to be seen!
-
-
SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-11-21 @ 23:44:59
No, I could prove from first principles that it's not possible for anyone to prove to me that they are real. But first, please define these words for me:
Truth
Real
Tom.-
-
Znethru
Pro
- http://www.febland.net/
- 2008-11-21 @ 23:56:02
Truth - I could name a fact which is true although this would not be a complete definition. The boiling point of water is 100 degrees Centigrade (at one atmosphere!)
Real - Again, I could give an exmaple without defining it completely. It is an irrefutable reality that Barack Obama is the President-elect of the United States of America.
Now I leave you to draw your own confusions (or to make Mr Obama a Cup of Tea!)-
-
SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-11-22 @ 00:01:23
Excellent :-)
OK, let's consider the statement:
"Znethru is real"
This statement can either be true or false. If it is true, then Znethru is real. If it is false, then Znethru is not real. So what do we mean by "truth"?
There are 6 important basic theories of truth:
Pragmatic - truth has to be verified through investigation
Coherence - truths must fit well with other truths
Constructivist - truth is socially constructed and is specific to time, place and culture
Consensus - truth is what a lot of people say is truth
Correspondence - true statements correspond to how things really are: mind and object agree
Deflationary - truth is unimportant and irrelevant: "it is true that 1 + 1 = 2" and "1 + 1 = 2" have the same meaning, but the 2nd one is shorter.
For this question, it doesn't matter which one of these definitions of truth we pick as the result will be the same (although your definitions point to a combination of the pragmatic and correspondence theories): we have no reliable facts which can be used to assert that the initial statement is true. And what do we mean be facts:
"Facts may be understood as that which makes a true sentence true"
The statement "Asia is the most populous continent on Earth" is made true by the fact that Asia is the most populous continent on Earth. Facts may also be understood as those things to which a true sentence refers. The statement "Asia is the most populous continent on Earth" is about the fact that Asia is the most populous continent on Earth.
So do we have any facts relating to the statement "Znethru is real". No, we don't, absolutely none. So, can we declare this as a "true" statement? No, we can't. So, I am unable to prove that "Znethru is real". Furthermore, I can assert that no-one other than Znethru can do this as no-one other than Znethru him/her self can have reliable facts on this matter.
Isn't philosophy wonderful :-)
Tom.
-
-
Znethru
Pro
- http://www.febland.net/
- 2008-11-22 @ 00:08:06
Now that is a truly brilliant answer and I am strongly inclined to regard you therefore as being real!
Welcome to the sentient world.
And yes, philosophy is a truly amazing subject!-
-
SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-11-22 @ 00:12:42
The same logic applies to both God and Znethru.....
-
-
la_spice
- 2008-11-22 @ 07:50:04
And I'm as 'real' as Tom - though with much less facial hair!!!
-
-
SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-11-22 @ 10:34:35
You can have some of mine - I have enough to spare!
Tom.-
-
ThatWoman
- 2008-11-22 @ 10:47:44
That's kind but I'll pass on that one
-
-
SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-11-22 @ 10:48:40
Hello!
-
-
-
-
la_spice
- 2008-11-22 @ 10:52:44
Tom - you are such a gentleman but I really must decline your offer.
It was bad enough wearing a false moustache in last year's panto! 
-
-
SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-11-22 @ 11:00:06
OK, but feel free to ask if you change your mind :-)
-
-
antlady69
Pro - http://antmusic-forever.blog.co.uk
- 2008-11-24 @ 06:36:21
Damn good discussion!!
xx -
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
FuManChu
- 2008-11-21 @ 23:42:43
Technomist thinks, therefore I am.
-
-
Znethru
Pro
- http://www.febland.net/
- 2008-11-21 @ 23:47:52
Do you let him do your thinking for you?
-
-
technomist
- 2008-11-21 @ 23:52:41
No, I only let FuManChu think I do. She really only exists because if think she does.
-
-
Znethru
Pro
- http://www.febland.net/
- 2008-11-22 @ 00:03:52
Now I must say that I am heavily inclined to believe that a man who has his own blog-writing gardener (as well as defining in minute detail his local environs) exists and is therefore real.
Technomist, you are in the lead (somehow!) -
-
-
-
-
-
alecweston
Pro - 2008-11-21 @ 23:58:43
I am a figmant of your imagination, who is about to go to bed and therefore unable to reply to your reply
-
-
-
kevinwilson
- 2008-11-22 @ 00:00:36
i could hit you.
would that work?!-
-
Znethru
Pro
- http://www.febland.net/
- 2008-11-22 @ 00:10:31
Ah, you are of the "I thus refute it" school!
http://www.samueljohnson.com/refutati.html -
-
-
-
freeasthewind
- 2008-11-22 @ 03:48:38
Ouch!!!!! that pinch hurt so yes I am real and I can pinch you and you are real
-
-
-
Munzly
- http://poppycock.blog.co.uk/
- 2008-11-22 @ 06:29:21
I only exist when you think I do....
-
-
But I'm a ghost....
-
-
MonkeyPie
- 2008-11-23 @ 13:54:32
Even if I were to pinch you, I'd only be as real as you are- relative reality, does it actually mean existence?
-
-
-
honeydews
- 2008-11-23 @ 16:58:49
As real as you are ...
-
-
- 2008-11-23 @ 19:22:21
Unless we define a common definition of the word "real" then the whole question becomes redundant.
XoD.
I only think I'm real, so I can't prove either way.