On the X-Files, Special Agent Fox Mulder had above his desk a poster with what looked like a traditional Flying Saucer image on it, accompanied by the text “I WANT TO BELIEVE”.
A very simple question:
Why?
Why would you “want to believe”?
Tom.
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skip2468
- 2008-06-23 @ 20:53:24
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SeasideMan
Pro - 2008-06-23 @ 21:44:25
Excellent advice, Skip. Skepticism has never seemed more important than now.
Tom. -
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jenray
Pro - http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 2008-06-23 @ 21:00:41
For the hell of it I guess....HLOL...
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-23 @ 21:50:28
Hmm...for the hell of it. I struggle to see what is gained though...
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grumpus
Pro - http://bobmblack.blog.co.uk
- 2008-06-23 @ 21:06:39
Would a crucifix with the same inscription be any different?
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-23 @ 21:49:11
Perhaps a person wearing a crucifix already does believe, so "want" wouldn't be too relevant.
Tom.-
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grumpus
Pro
- http://bobmblack.blog.co.uk
- 2008-06-23 @ 22:11:32
A person wearing a crucifix may be saying "I want YOU to think I believe", or maybe even "I don't really believe but I'm not taking any chances."
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-23 @ 22:14:52
Those scenarios create even more difficult questions!
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middleagespread
- 2008-06-23 @ 22:16:57
The desire to believe in anything is quite strong. I know a girl who is devoutly christian- to the point that god tells her to do things. I sort of admire her belief in god because she doesn't doubt herself in any way- unlike almost everyone else i know.
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-23 @ 23:13:15
The thought of having no doubts seems alien to me. To be completely sure of things that are not proven is to run a huge risk of being wrong.
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joebangles
- 2008-06-23 @ 22:25:25
I have struggled to believe since witnessing how after the death of his child belief helped the father to move on in life.
I have seen someone accept that her life was to end shortly because of her belief that there was something else.
I find that I can't believe, I would like to believe.
That is not the same as want to believe is it.-
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middleagespread
- 2008-06-23 @ 22:36:17
Let me put my comment into better context, The person in question is an 'artist'. She told me that god had told her to paint. She believed that her paintings were truely wonderful and would sell like hot cakes. I don't know if they are.
I also paint, but have never had the same wholehearted belief that everything i do will be successful. I happen to doubt almost everything i do, which i think allows me to improve through constructive critisism(bad spelling!?!).
I quite envied her unswerving belief that she had in herself through her belief in god.-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-23 @ 23:15:27
Positivity is great. Certainty in an absence of evidence is wishful thinking.
I think you are right that having doubts makes one question ones output. If I thought I was Great Writer or Photographer, I might have less reason to try and improve and as a result my chances of success are slimmer than if I doubt.
Tom. -
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-23 @ 23:19:53
That wasn't quite what I was asking, but it is interesting all the same and I thank you for it.
We all have to cope with death, both of ourselves and others. That's one of the most basic things that makes us human.
Thanks for your reply.
Tom. -
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soyunperdedor
Pro - http://soyunperdedor.blog.co.uk
- 2008-06-23 @ 22:29:34
Taken literally in context? He wanted to believe because he had devoted so much time to finding out the Truth. Where his sister was, who had taken her...the lot. The Truth.
In a wider context? People want to believe in something like that when they have little else to hold in faith in their lives.
Just my opinion.-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-23 @ 23:15:33
That doesn't make sense to me. If he really wanted "the Truth", then surely he would have been happy either way: i.e. with either proof For or proof Against. Wanting to believe implies something other than a wish for Truth to me.
In the wider context, why do they "want to believe in something like that when they have little else to hold in faith in their lives"?
Thanks for your answers.
Tom.-
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soyunperdedor
Pro
- http://soyunperdedor.blog.co.uk
- 2008-06-23 @ 23:19:23
He wanted to believe in the UFO side of the story as the alternative was, I think, his father arranging her kidnap. Or something. It's just TV...
I realise I didn't type the second comment very well. I think I mean it's like everything else fanatical (and I don't want to enter a religion debate, but, well, that's one example) - filling a void in their lives.-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-23 @ 23:31:07
So it sounds like he was resisting an unpleasant possible truth. That's very human. I know it's just a telly programme, but it's clearly one that struck a chord with a lot of people and to be honest, that was just a way of livening up a dull question :-)
So you think that belief fills a "void", and that's why you'd want to believe, so that the void became filled? What would cause such a void, do you think, what would it look like?
Tom.-
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soyunperdedor
Pro
- http://soyunperdedor.blog.co.uk
- 2008-06-23 @ 23:43:03
Hmm, what would cause a void...
Loss mainly. Never having something that you crave. A sense of not belonging, and so finding others that share your beliefs. The need to prove a point, and be right. Faith in a deity or practice.
I envision it as exactly how I described it. A void. An empty space that can be filled with belief.-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-23 @ 23:51:32
But surely belief isn't the only thing that can fill a void? You give a few options:
Loss: seek something new
Something you crave: Search for it
Sense of not belonging: Try harder
Wanting to find others to share your beliefs: then you already have beliefs and need not "want" them
Needing to be right: Opinions are not necessarily right or wrong, accept that
Faith: Is a choice.
There are so very many different ways that one can look at the world if one has sufficient imagination.
An excellent answer, and I thank you for it.
Tom.-
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soyunperdedor
Pro
- http://soyunperdedor.blog.co.uk
- 2008-06-24 @ 00:04:10
I certainly don't dispute that other things can fill those kind of voids. I was just giving reasons for having beliefs, not other ways of dealing with them.
'Loss - seek something new' - would finding a new belief not come into that? Wanting to believe in something, something new and different to what you no longer have, to fill the void caused by the loss?
'Something you crave: Search for it' - and you want to believe you have stopped searching, and found it.
'Sense of not belonging: Try harder' - you believe you have tried, and believe you have found those amongst whom you can belong - for example, all believing in little green men.
'Wanting to find others to share your beliefs: then you already have beliefs and need not "want" them' - but you want to believe others out their share what you believe - people can have many beliefs they want to share.
And now, you tricky bugger, I'm off to bed!
:-)
'Needing to be right: Opinions are not necessarily right or wrong, accept that' - if you believe so strongly that you are right, it is hard to accept that you could be wrong. You want to believe you are right - the alternative is admitting defeat. This is impossible for some people.
'Faith: Is a choice.' - always? (That's another topic.) Some people want to believe in a faith/religion because the alternative is nothing, it is the void, and they need to know others believe the same as they do.
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soyunperdedor
Pro
- http://soyunperdedor.blog.co.uk
- 2008-06-24 @ 00:05:00
See, I can't even type at the end of a comment
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-24 @ 00:15:34
OK, cool. Just a couple of thoughts on your final points:
"You want to believe you are right - the alternative is admitting defeat. This is impossible for some people"
I feel sorry for such people. Being unable to admit that you are wrong is terribly hobbling.
Yes, faith is always a choice. How can it be otherwise? If there is no free choice (or free will if you like), then there is compulsion instead and that is the antithesis of faith.
Sleep well :-)
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tylluanpenry
- 2008-06-23 @ 23:00:10
Tom are you clairvoyant???
That poster's my desktop!
Why? I just like it.
(I liked the X files a LOT. Very entertaining!)-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-23 @ 23:23:25
See how I attracted you to my post.....
:-)
Why do you think Mulder wanted to believe?
Tom.-
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tylluanpenry
- 2008-06-24 @ 07:45:26
I think because he felt guilty over his sister's disappearance. He needed to believe that what he had seen was possible because this absolved him from guilt that he hadn't done more to save her.
Mulder was a very tortured soul in many respects.
Perhaps a more general reason for 'wanting to believe' is in order to add an extra dimension to a life that seems lacking. And who knows - maybe someone's life is lacking in one respect that only a particular belief can fulfil.
I'm a pagan, I have all sorts of beliefs that other people probably think are bizarre, but I still believe them. I'm not asking - and I'm certainly not telling - anyone else that they should believe them too.
The reason I write my books is not to indoctrinate, but to explain what I believe. If others find those beliefs appealing, or helpful, they are free to include them in their lives. If they don't - it doesn't matter.
I suspect we all have a huge range of life experiences... and my own feeling is that provided we keep within the parameters of acceptable social and legal behaviour we can believe what we like.
I don't subscribe to the idea that anybody, believer or otherwise, has the right to ram their ideas down other people's throats.
There are times when everyone just has to grow up and agree to differ, not get out the machetes and start hacking....
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-24 @ 08:32:13
That makes sense about Mulder, thanks for explaining. Wanting something to be true that made him feel less guilty. Yup.
Adding an extra dimension to a life that seems lacking is similar to what someone else said about a void needing filling. That doesn't really have any meaning for me, but if it does to others then fair enough. I'd fill that void with learning Spanish or having piano lessons or something.
I fully agree with people's right to believe in whatever they like, and also that no-one has "the right to ram their ideas down other people's throats", as you put it. I would however extend this to parents and their own children.
Thanks, Tom.-
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tylluanpenry
- 2008-06-24 @ 08:39:54
I agree with you about parents and children. I tried to bring mine up with an understanding of fair play, being part of a community (home, family, school, home town etc) and I also introduced them to things I thought would interest them that they didn't get in school, such as music, french, latin, botany and visiting ancient sites.
Mine are all a bit witchy - they may one day become pagans, Christians whatever - that's their choice.
Indoctrination (which is what I call information with an unpleasant attitude) is never a pleasant thing.-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-24 @ 08:46:03
We seem to have very similar attitudes on this :-)
Cheers, Tom. -
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CassandraofTroy
- 2008-06-24 @ 06:59:26
When I was young I wanted to believe in something. Belief is comforting because it means not really having to think things through properly, not having to inform yourself about what is really happening in the world, because you can just grab a response and close down the discussion. The ability to see both sides of an argument and then have the responsibility of having to weigh up the evidence and decide which is most convincing can be horribly frustrating.
These days, I see it as a strength - but the responsibility for making a reasoned judgment is still there. There is a kind of scepticism which just dismisses everything automatically without thinking about the issues properly before coming to a conclusion. Unthinking scepticism is just as irrational as unthinking belief - as I've said before.
http://cassandra-of-troy.blog.co.uk/2008/05/15/experts-4175975-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-24 @ 08:43:16
I can see how not wanting to think would make someone go down the belief route, that makes a lot of sense.
Skepticism is sometimes "unthinking", it's true. Many times bitten forever shy tends to explain it. If a snake-oil sales rep says "Buy this, it'll cure all your problems", you can choose to believe and hand over your money, say "Prove it first", or just assume it's a false claim. That latter position is more reasonable than the first position since all the other snake-oil sales reps have been proven wrong. But the best position is the middle one:
"Prove it"
Thanks for a fine answer.
Tom.-
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CassandraofTroy
- 2008-06-24 @ 09:26:17
You're welcome
when it comes to snake oil... or spam... or cold callers, I definitely go for the third category.
But that is based on past knowledge, not necessarily of my own experience, but of other people's - so, you learn which situations and people to trust, and which not.
And in other cases, even if you don't find 'proof', a bit of digging can often give you a better feel of the basis on which the claim, or whatever it is, is being made.
thinking about this, combined with other discussions which have come up lately, has set me off thinking about the differences between scientific and political debates, and how they are often confused - which might inspire me to write something else.
So, thank YOU for a fine question-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-24 @ 09:29:36
:-)
Regarding scientific and political debates, there are some similarities and some differences. It would be interesting to investigate what is the same and what is different, so go for it! If you do write and post something like that, I shall certainly read it with interest.
Cheers, Yom. -
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Kibitz
- 2008-06-24 @ 07:23:33
Why would you want to believe?
Mmm .. Let me think.
Because ... It would mean there’s something other than imperfect humans in this ever expanding universe.
Something with greater knowledge.
Something from which we could possibly learn ... Adam.-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-24 @ 08:35:23
Why does something else being there make someone want to believe, and what does human imperfection have to do with that?
Wanting to improve oneself is great but there are many ways of doing this without belief.
Thanks for your answer.
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grumpus
Pro
- http://bobmblack.blog.co.uk
- 2008-06-24 @ 09:17:07
Surely "I WANT to believe" implies that you "don't believe" but have searched for "proof" diligently but unsuccessfully.
Each failure to find proof simply reinforces the disbelief, and diminishes the "want" to the point of irrelevance.
Therefore the text "I WANT TO BELIEVE" makes no sense. You either believe or you don't.-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-24 @ 09:29:29
Your logic seems good to me, until the end. Reinforced disbelief might actually increase the wanting.
Tom.-
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grumpus
Pro
- http://bobmblack.blog.co.uk
- 2008-06-24 @ 09:58:03
Would that be an irrational desire? A sort of blind faith tinged with doubt and guilt.
I'm just off to a funeral so I'll have lots of relevant issues to observe and ponder as the deceased is sent off to "Who knows where???"
Interesting thread Tom.-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-24 @ 10:30:23
Yes, I would call that an irrational desire, but some humans and irrationality seem to go together well.
Ugh, funerals depress me.
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DominicGee
- 2008-06-24 @ 10:27:06
Hmmm, it's a funny statement. The desire to believe may be strong, but an actual belief cannot come from choice can it?If, for example, I say I believe in Karma. I may have wanted to believe in karma which led to the belief, but the belief itself has to be genuine, otherwise it's just hope (though not a lesser emotion by any means). Or, to choose an example from the other side, if my son dies in a car accident, I may not want to believe it, but I do. Wanting a belief may dictate certain aspects of your behaviour, but actual belief, when you actually hold it, surely it is something that you hold certain?
For example: I HOPE that Jackanorry at 3.30 will win, but I do not believe it will be so.
I BELIEVE that tomorrow will be Tuesday, but I do not hope it will (maybe I do, but you get the point).
I can see what you're getting at - if I want to believe in God for example, it is more likely to happen, but I think belief (or faith - are they the same?) is not hope but certainty and that cannot only be achieved by desire. That is why relious people are called delluded - they do not just HOPE for an after-life (which is not delusional), they BELIEVE in one (which may or may not be).-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-24 @ 10:40:47
I would say that you have to choose to believe, or not to believe. If belief is not a matter of choice then there is no free will.
In the context of religion, faith and belief are virtually identical.
Thanks for a thoughtful answer.
Tom.-
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DominicGee
- 2008-06-24 @ 10:54:04
To what extent would a person excercise free-will? It's an interesting thought because, as you have maintained before (or did I misinterpret), the certainty of science makes belief unnecessary. So does that mean we do not have free will? or, are there other things that, in the absence of certainty, we only have belief (such as belief in a cause)? or is there in fact no such thing as belief, but only the desire to believe (explained by the fact that there is no certainty in the existence of God, yet people believe - they must want to believe in order to be able to bridge this gap).
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-24 @ 11:23:12
I think we have free will, but that is far from certain. It is perfectly possible that everything in the universe is controlled and planned by some central agency which some call "god" and that even though I might think I have free will I haven't. I think I have free will, but it is possible that thought might have been planted in my head by the central agency and that's what it wants me to think. I don't think that's the case but again perhaps that is what it wants me to think.
And so on forever. This sort of "theological determinism" really does imply a total lack of free will. Some philosophers (known as "compatibilists") however believe that free will and determinism are perfectly compatible. I don't find their arguments at all convincing. This is an entire branch of philosophy and people have spent their entire lives thinking and writing about whether we have free will or not.
My dictionary defines belief like this:
"Belief: confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof"
I cannot ever see myself WANTing to do that, so it's interesting for me to see what others think about it.
Tom.-
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DominicGee
- 2008-06-24 @ 11:30:30
I can perfectly understand that, what I was asking was whether for you, there is anything you believe in, according to your dictionary definition, or is all your knowledge only measured by probability? Of course, philosophically, doubt is the only 'logical' answer, but I was wondering if you hold a belief in Love or Justice or other abstract nouns. Do you have any "confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof"?
Also, in your above answer, do you use the word 'think' as a replacement for 'belief', because they could be easily interchanged.-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-24 @ 11:50:10
According to that definition, there is absolutely nothing I believe in, and I can't think of anything at all that I would be likely to believe in either. I work on probabilities.
No, think and believe are not synonymous.
Tom.-
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DominicGee
- 2008-06-24 @ 12:00:58
OK then, that makes sense. Though I would hesitate to measure everything on probabilities, since it is such a subjective science (if it is in fact a science - probabilities can never be prooved).
I was not suggesting think and believe are synonymous, I suppose 'think' is shorthand way of saying 'I have assessed the probability and this is the likliest answer' in your language. I just wanted clarification of the phrase "I think we have free will." One, becasue I think it is something that you WANT us to have... two, what is the evidence of our free will... and three, you say it is far from certain, so what does it mean when you say "I think..."?-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-24 @ 12:56:15
If there are no certainties, what we have left is probabilities. But in deciding a course of action, we don't need 100% reliability, we just need sufficient for confidence, sufficient to allow a choice to be made: I think it's safe to cross the road here.
No, I don't "want us to have" free will, I think it is the most likely option. With an absence of free will, you can't hold criminals responsible for their crimes because they had no choice in the matter. That's even been tried in court:
"He was not his own father; he was not his own mother; he was not his own grandparents. All of this was handed to him. He did not surround himself with governesses and wealth. He did not make himself. And yet he is to be compelled to pay"
It failed.
Also, there can be no sin because you had no choice in the matter. But we have courts and religious books talk about sin. Even St Paul thought we had free will:
"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
Hard Determinists are a rare breed and how they get through life thinking that nothing they do was their own choice, I don't know.
So where do you sit in all this - what do YOU think?
Tom.-
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DominicGee
- 2008-06-24 @ 13:43:42
I think I agree with most of that. As I said, a desire to believe something may compel you to attempt to do so, but the belief itself must stand alone. This thought has lead me to think that it is most likely that there are not many people who have whole-hearted beliefs (although I cannot speak for them). Most people probably have what you have called a "wishful thought" in that they WANT there to be an afterlife and therefore say and act as if there is one. How many of these have a firm belief in the idea is unknowable.
I think the phrase 'I want to believe' simply makes me question the methods and the final conculsion of whatever is the investigation, as it clearly takes away any impartiality. You may as well enter jury service with the slogan 'I want to convict'. I suppose that is why 'faith' has alwasy been so hard to define, as is it intangible, abstract, emotional and subjective. According to 'Men are from Mars Women are from Venus' these are more feminine concepts that men struggle with. Funny how the main exponents of it are male then. I guess it highlights the importance of figures like Mary Magdeline or Joan of Arc. I diverge.-
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SeasideMan
Pro
- 2008-06-24 @ 13:51:55
Hooray, we've agreed on something!
"I want to convict" is only acceptable if you are the prosecutor. The judge and jury should be impartial.
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DominicGee
- 2008-06-24 @ 11:35:23
I say this because you have expressed an emotional dislike for 'knowledge' not based on proof, which is totally fine, rational if you like (e.g. "I do not like the idea of a God who does not love us"). However, do you not think that this has lead you to your own position - that is - the sign above your desk would read "I DO NOT WANT TO BELIEVE".
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These days one is wise to believe little and doubt much.